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Johnny Penn Butler
| Open Poetry #48 |
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Johnny Penn Butler |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana 
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 Johnny Penn Butler* Who do I ask? I could ask God. God will not speak to me. Why must He put on a façade? A gracious god; not He. I seek answers, don't freeze me out. Why children have to cry? Stand God! On your mountain and shout! Still they suffer and die. Yes, the wages of sin is death. Why? Children are sin free. Why must they suffer to take breaths? God! Please answer my plea. ©June 10, 2012 / Jerry Pat Bolton *Johnny Penn Butler is the main character in my new novel The Late Great God, a work-in-progress. Johnny is trying to find an answer to the question . . . If infants and children are sin free, and they know not right from wrong, why do they have terrible diseases? Why do they have to suffer and die? ~*~ If they give you lined paper, write sideways. ~*~ |
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ethome Member Patricius
since 2000-05-14
Posts 11858New Brunswick Canada |
Excellent question Jerry and I hope the book goes well. However, just take a little side trip with me...For a brief while pretend in your mind that the Bible is an inspired book and God influenced all the writers to record his thoughts. Kinda like a secretary writing down the thoughts of a CEO to send out to all in the company. She/he would write down his thoughts. Let us consider an illustration. Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever but rebellious student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. Implying that the teacher is not capable, this rebel insists that he knows a much better way to solve the problem. Some students think that he is right, and they also become rebellious. What should the teacher do? If he throws the rebels out of the class, what will be the effect on the other students? Will they not believe that their fellow student and those who joined him are right? All the other students in the class might lose respect for the teacher, thinking that he is afraid of being proved wrong. But suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem. God has done something similar to what the teacher does. Remember that the rebels in Eden were not the only ones involved. Millions of angels were watching. (Job 38:7; Daniel 7:10) How God handled the rebellion would greatly affect all those angels and eventually all intelligent creation. So, what has God done? He has allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance. The teacher in our illustration knows that the rebel and the students on his side are wrong. But he also knows that allowing them the opportunity to try to prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class. They will understand why the teacher thereafter removes any rebels from the class. Similarly, God knows that all honesthearted humans and angels will benefit from seeing that Satan and his fellow rebels have failed and that humans cannot govern themselves. Like Jeremiah of old, they will learn this vital truth: “I well know, O God, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”—Jeremiah 10:23. So..... Why, has God allowed suffering to go on for so long? And why does he not prevent bad things from happening? Well, consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do. First, he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case. Second, the teacher would not help the rebel to make his case. Similarly, consider two things that God has determined not to do. First, he has not stopped Satan and those who side with him from trying to prove that they are right. Allowing time to pass has thus been necessary. In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, crime, and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure. Second, God has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes, for instance, would he not, in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels? Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results? If God were to act in that way, he would become party to a lie. However, “it is impossible for God to lie.”—Hebrews 6:18. What, though, about all the harm that has been done during the long rebellion against God? We do well to remember that God is almighty. Therefore, he can and will undo the effects of mankind’s suffering. The ruining of our planet will be undone by the turning of the earth into Paradise. The effects of sin will be removed through faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, and the effects of death will be reversed by means of the resurrection. God will thus use Jesus “to break up the works of the Devil.” (1 John 3:8) God will bring all of this about at just the right time. We can be glad that he has not acted sooner, for his patience has given us the opportunity to learn the truth and to serve him. (2 Peter 3:9, 10) Meanwhile, God has been actively seeking sincere worshipers and helping them to endure any suffering that may come upon them in this troubled world.—John 4:23; 1 Corinthians 10:13. Some might wonder, Could all this suffering have been prevented if God had created Adam and Eve in such a way that they could not rebel? To answer that question, you need to remember a precious gift that God has given you. As was noted in the Bible, humans were created with free will. Do you realize what a precious gift that is? God has made countless animals, and these are driven largely by instinct. (Proverbs 30:24) Man has made some robots that can be programmed to follow every command. Would we be happy if God had made us like that? No, we are glad to have the freedom to make choices about what kind of person to become, what course of life to pursue, what friendships to form, and so on. We love to have a measure of freedom, and that is what God wants us to enjoy. God is not interested in service performed under compulsion. (2 Corinthians 9:7) To illustrate: What would please a parent more—a child’s saying “I love you” because he is told to say it or his saying it freely from the heart? So the question is, How will you use the free will that God has given you? Satan, Adam, and Eve made the worst possible use of free will. They rejected God. What will you do? Might seem like a cinderella story Jerry but there's powerful essence of truth in researching the Bible for yourself and not what someone tells you from a platform or pulpit. I deeply believe that huge organized religions are guilty of many many acts cruelty and oppression under the guise of pretending to be righteous. Read the lyrics to Eric Burdon's song, "Sky Pilot" which was the nick name of a minister or priest during the second world war. These preachers are simply humans drawing oxygen just like you and I. These days many are exposed to sick pedophile crimes and much more! Using the Bible as a cover up. Great thought provoking write all the same. Look how you got me going......smile.... Eric true love never looks after it's own interests |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
Eric, I truly appreciate the effort you put forth on behalf of my poem and its contents. I am sorry to say that my answer will be much, much briefer. Throughout all of your excellent (and scripture proofed) comments you failed to address the message of my poem and the book. If the wages of sin is death, why then are small children, some infants, who know not sin because they are not old enough to understand right or wrong, why Eric, are they subject to horrendous and painful afflictions and diseases and suffer and some die? They are sinless. They can't make the choice to sin or not. That's my point. I have interviewed ministers and priests, they cannot give me an answer. Many fall back on the line that they are paying for their fathers sin. If they believe that they are serving a very mean god. ~*~ If they give you lined paper, write sideways. ~*~ |
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ebonygirl Member Elite
since 2011-07-14
Posts 2000California U.S.A |
OML, (oh my lord)! Great question JP! I too ask the same question about the suffering of children, elderly and of animals. We, who are able to vote can change their life, can't we? So, if we can influence change, for good or bad, are we then like god. If we are godlike, is it not us who is the cause of this suffering? "Us" being adult, not child, not helpless. Boy, I confused myself! Ms. E |
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ebonygirl Member Elite
since 2011-07-14
Posts 2000California U.S.A |
I know I missed the point of your question, that being, why does God allow the innocent children to suffer. I don't know the answer, JP. I is a very sad situation. Ms. E |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
It's okay, Ms. E, you became confused because there is no answer. I began writing the novel because I hoped as I wrote it I would luck up on an answer, because the question has been on my mind for many, many years. I'm getting close to the end of the first draft and as yet I haven't found the answer. I'm not giving up, but it looks unanswerable. We'll see. Thank you very much for your comments, my friend. ~*~ If they give you lined paper, write sideways. ~*~ |
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ebonygirl Member Elite
since 2011-07-14
Posts 2000California U.S.A |
Thank you JP, for understanding my confusion. This question does bring tears to my eyes. I hope you will find the answer soon. Your friend, ms. e |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
I know, Ms E, it is one of those questions we just don't want to face, but it is there, and I'm looking. Hard. Working on Chapter 41 as we speak . . . er .. . write. ~*~ If they give you lined paper, write sideways. ~*~ |
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ethome Member Patricius
since 2000-05-14
Posts 11858New Brunswick Canada |
Jerry I actually did answer your question. If you read the info again you'll realize we are all born into sin and until it's time for divine intervention things will continue on in this world the same way. From the beginning it hasn't been God's fault and he isn't causing the suffering. Those small children are a product of imperfect man's passing it along. It doesn't change if in their young life they suffer because they are a product of man's first parents. It's not their fault they were born into this world under these conditions but they will grow up in a state of imperfection and will sin just like everyone else. Adam was created a perfect man but when he sinned against God's will he lost the right to perfection and living without dying. It's like making a dent in a well molded bread pan, every loaf after that will show the flaw of that dent. It's man and many angels turned against God's divine plan that have made conditions like they are today. Unfortunately these small helpless children suffer because of it. But so do other young men and women who can't help living on this earth. God is all powerful and almighty and he can bring back to life those who have suffered after all it wasn't part of his purpose in the first place. He did create man in the first place and yes, it does hurt him to see the suffering and affliction that goes on in this world. In time he will restore conditions to those of peace and health. Revelations 21: 4 The answer is the future under God's rule and not man's rule. So whether these children know sin in the sense of reasoning what it really is, doesn't change the fact they were born into their first father's sinful condition. It will be only under a new order of things, God's kingdom, as many pray for in the Lord's prayer, not knowing what they pray for, that relief will come to mankind. We hardly have the right to be personally arrogant as insignificant little humans and demand that God change his timetable for us. However, if we approach God in prayer and ask for endurance through all these injustices we will realize the benefits of his mercy. Many don't even believe in God because they want to blame him. However, as time goes on some change their tune. Recently, one of the world's leading proponents of atheism in Great Britian changed his mind after studying beyond what we as everyday humans know about DNA, RNA. His claim was that it couldn't possibly come together as a result of blind chance because it is more organized and complex than he ever imagined. Had to have intelligent design. So, God didn't create internal combustion that has drawn the world's resources of crude oil from underground and spewed it out into the atmosphere through cars, boats, planes, factories etc. It was imperfect man! Faith is a big word isn't it? Eric true love never looks after it's own interests |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
Faith is a big word indeed, and I'm not being arrogant in wanting a real answer, not the old standby "we are all born in sin." No, Eric, you did not answer the question, at least not insofar as I am concerned. I cannot conceive of a deity who would allow young children to be physically destroyed because of some damned "original" sin. I know you think you answered the question, and if you are right and I am wrong, I'll just say God must have been in a hissy fit when he conceived all this. I've noticed that almost during any conversation we have you bring up the oil and gas situation. God undoubtedly wants us to have it, he put it there for us to find. ~*~ If they give you lined paper, write sideways. ~*~ |
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ethome Member Patricius
since 2000-05-14
Posts 11858New Brunswick Canada |
I wasn't calling you arrogant Jerry it was a reference to humans in general. Like I mentioned in these posts God didn't conceive it. You seem to insist on that angle. Man's responsible for it all, his choices. The old standby is a FACT! Just because God put the crude there you actually think man has the right to abuse it? God also created the materials for nuclear warfare do you really think he wanted man to use it for that? It's esay to try and humanize God and use hissy fit.....smile.... All the same let us agree to disagree on this subject and drop it at that. What benefit is it to either of us to carry it on? You have your ideas I have mine. However, you asked the question and I simply gave the answer I feel is applicable in my opinion. Take care and have a great day. Eric true love never looks after it's own interests |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
I agree, drop it. Yes, I asked the question, you answered and I responded to your answer . . . and the race was on. Gotta love it, and I do. See you next time, buddy. ~*~ If they give you lined paper, write sideways. ~*~ |
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Sunshine
Administrator
Member Empyrean
since 1999-06-25
Posts 63354Listening to every heart |
I am sure I will enjoy this book as much as I did Margaret & David. I've noticed over the years in my reading of various authors, that some books never do really provide any answers...they just keep us pondering the questions put forth. Q. Will there be poetry in your new novel? |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
Hello Karilea, thank you for your nice words. No, there will be no poetry in the novel, just a story. Appreciate you being here. ~*~ If they give you lined paper, write sideways. ~*~ |
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Michael
Moderator
Member Rara Avis
since 1999-08-13
Posts 7666California |
I like this JP... Your thoughts gain power when they shift to rhyme... or maybe I'm just partial. Either way, this is a quite powerful. Enjoyed and completely understood the sentiment. Michael |
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ethome Member Patricius
since 2000-05-14
Posts 11858New Brunswick Canada |
Right on Jerry I have always enjoyed our little discussion excursions. I was in no way trying to diminish the impact of your book. I'm sure it will be an excellent read and I've always observed you to be able to take it all good or bad. I truly wish you the best with the book. We all have our beliefs and perceptions based on what we've absorbed in a lifetime. Have a burgundy for me and I'll tip one for you.....smile... Eric true love never looks after it's own interests |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
Hah! Yeah, Michael, I think you are just biased for rhyme. I like it too, and will never get away from it, but free verse speaks to me also, so I have the best of both worlds. appreciate you being here. ~*~ If they give you lined paper, write sideways. ~*~ |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
This little excursion tried to get out of hand, Eric, but I know you wasn't trying to be hurtful or diminishing, as you said, we think different. It's that simple. Tipping one to you tonight . . . ~*~ If they give you lined paper, write sideways. ~*~ |
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Startime1955 Senior Member
since 2012-04-22
Posts 1072Alberta, Canada |
WOW!!! You two are brilliant...having been a child when sin was committed against me I understand a great deal the question...what works for me is that I believe the person sinning against me was given the freedom of choice and will someday be judged accordingly...the test for me is how as an adult I choose to respond to it...I can choose to let it distroy me or I can become more compassionate to those around me...***BIG HUGS*** to both of you...I am excited about your book, Jerry... *may our dreams ever be magical* |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
I'm very sorry to hear about the sins perpetrated on your early childhood, Karen. I am certain you will make the right decision on how you want to handle the aftermath of it. As always, thank you so much for you being here. ~*~ If they give you lined paper, write sideways. ~*~ |
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Marchmadness Member Rara Avis
since 2007-09-16
Posts 9271So. El Monte, California |
At least there are now those, like yourself, who question. My therory has always been why were given a brain if we aren't supposed to use it but just accept whatever we are told to think. Less probability of being burned at the stake is also more condusive to actual thought. Ida |
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JerryPat2 Member Laureate
since 2011-02-06
Posts 16975South Louisiana |
Question. Question. Question. I just cannot, for the life of me, understand the "faith" scenario, Ida. Thanks for being here. ~*~ If they give you lined paper, write sideways. ~*~ |
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